here’s a letter to Steve Jobs Re the issue I had:
Who knows if he’ll read it. I sent it registered mail. I also filed a better business bureau complaint against Apple and TD Curran. Havn’t heard back. I am all for making businesses be accountable to us for their product and service. Lets hit them where it hurts–bad press and last sales.
November 30, 2007
Steve Jobs
Apple, Inc
1 Infinite Loop
Cupertino, CA 95014
Dear Mr. Jobs,
I am writing this letter to make you aware of my frustration with your product and your service. I have filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau, but their space is limited and I would like to tell you the full story. It seems I have been sold a defective computer, and then charged more money by your company and by its affiliate to try to fix the symptom of the defect without replacing the computer or fixing the defect itself. Let me present the facts and see what you think. My incedent number with Apple is blank.
In June 2007 I purchased a Macbook with OSX for $1408.12. I enjoyed three months of problem free usage. In September 2007, the computer began crashing randomly about 3-4 times a week.
When the problem persisted for a month, I called Apple Customer Support. After I described my problem, the first thing your employee said was in order for him to help me without being charged for the phone call, I would need to sign up for the Applecare Protection Plan. At the time, I did not question that I was already covered under a one-year warranty, so why would I need the APP when seeking assistance with a defect that should be covered under warranty? Nor did he say, when he was selling me the APP, that I needed it because my issue was a software issue; he said it was because my 90 day free phone services had run out. Foolishly I agreed to it and shelled out another $269.92. He walked me through several diagnostics and disk repair utilities, told me that they should fix the problem but to call back if they did not and Apple would perform an Archive and Reinstall on my computer. Never once did he mention software updates.
The same problem persisted in the weeks that followed our conversation. I called the support number again a week or two later. After I waited 20 minutes on hold, the employee who answered seemed eager to get me off the phone. He seemed to think that I should just know how to do the archive and reinstall myself, and when I said I’d need to find the installation disks, he wanted me to call back later after I’d found them. I insisted that he say on the phone while I located the disks. He walked me through the first part of the archive reinstall, and then told me it would take about an hour or two, which he had not mentioned before I began the process. Then he got me off the phone as quickly as possible, without leaving me any instructions of what to do in the second part of the archive and reinstall. I could only hope that I’d done it correctly.
During our conversation, I had asked him if there was a Mac service center near me, hoping that if the problem continued, I could take the computer in and speak with someone face to face. He told me that TD Curran was the closest place that serviced Macs in my area and gave me their phone number. When the problem persisted in the following weeks, I took the computer in to TD Curran, who charged me $92.14 to update my software. Attached is a copy of the letter of complaint I sent to them after the very bad service I received from their employees. I have also filed a Better Business Bureau complaint against them.
What TD Curran claimed is that the problem of my computer periodically freezing up was due to me not regularly updating software. If this is true, I should have been told the first time I called Apple that software updates were causing the problem. However, I don’t see how that can be the problem, when the default setting is for software to update automatically and I have never once changed that setting (I didn’t even know it existed before last week). I know one specific other Mac OSX user who does not regularly update his software, has the exact same software as I do, and has never had the issue I have. I have since spoken to the Information Systems experts where I work, who handle about 50 networked computers for our small credit union, and they all agreed that they have never heard of a computer crashing due to not performing software updates. They suggested that the problem might be because a driver is failing or it might be due to overheating or battery issues. One of them even said that crashes were more likely to happen after software has been updated.
It seems to me that if Joe Blow pays $1408.12 to have a computer where backed up software updates do not cause random crashes, my $1408.12 should buy the same thing. A TD Curran employee told me that the problem I was having was not a common problem that all Macs have and that a variety of factors could be at the root of it. It seems clear to me that it is ultimately a hardware defect causing the problem, even if backed up software updates trigger it. My complaint goes beyond that, however, to the poor service I have received from your employees, who tricked me into buying the APP and then did not even want to help me on the phone once I’d bought it. Also, I know you do not have any control over the operating practices of your affiliate, TD Curran, but you may want to know the reputation that affiliate is casting on the Apple brand (see my letter to them).
At this point I am very frustrated, having paid $1770.18 for a three month headache. I am also saddened because I really liked my Macbook at first, and I thought that Apple was a trustworthy brand that backed up its product with excellent serice. That is why I paid more for this computer. If I pay less for a cheap Dell, I expect to have some service issues.
At the very least, I would like a full refund of the $92.14 from TD Curran, and the $269.92 for the Apple Care Protection Plan, along with replacement of this Macbook with one that works. Failing that, I would like to return the computer for a full refund of my $1770.18 from Apple. Either way, I would like a letter of apology for the poor service I have received and the stress this has caused me.
Sincerely,
Selah Tay-Song
December 13th, 2007 at 6:09 pm
If bought the Dell to begin with, you would not have these problems, a much more stable and user friendly machine, MUCH BETTER tech support and paid less for more performance.
December 14th, 2007 at 2:55 am
Your situation is so not unique; my g/f and I had the EXACT same issue where Apple flat-out refused to assist us in any way unless we had AppleCare or took it to a retail store. My g/f had a 6mo old white Macbook and the display was starting to flicker on/off so all she wanted was to get it fixed.
We refused, contacted Customer Relations, and eventually Executive Relations to get it all squared away. They repaired the machine, sent it back, bad screen again, and finally replaced it. We now have a good contact at Apple who has assured us that she will fix any issues we have.
Although I no longer own a Mac myself (returned 3 of them….each had defects), I can safely say that in the last 6 years of owning HP Pavilion notebooks, HP wouldn’t have done this… hell, they’ll support it even if it is out of warranty and ship you the part.
Good luck in your letter…please post back your results.
December 17th, 2007 at 12:26 am
I bought my first MacBook Pro in KC, MO last May 2007. I wanted the laptop for photography that is why I got the 17 inch widescreen. I loved it at first but started getting the random shut down problem. I talked to the Apple Care guys and got no where really though most of the tech support I have got from them ha been fine. I finally took this in to the MacSuperstore in our area ..not a corporate store…and the staff there is wonderful. They tried everything to sort out the issue and finally it was determined the thing had a bad logic board and without the apple care they said it would not be worth anything but parts as the logic board is so expensive. They repaired it but I still didn’t want to deal with this so I traded it in and got a fair deal from them. But today…the 126th Dec 2007 my new MacBook Pro suffered it’s first random shutdown. I have had this only for about a month. So I am going in tomorrow to see what this is about. ( I had read about the shutdown problem and it seemed the forums had been in 2006 and the first laptop was built in 2006. the new one in 2007…) This is frustrating and I hope this gets sorted out..I was thinking of replacing my older desktop with an iMac but am rethinking this now.
December 17th, 2007 at 12:28 am
intended to say the 16th of Dec 2007..my bad.
December 17th, 2007 at 12:39 am
Thanks or your replies, folks it is really nice to see this website and know that I am neither alone nor imagining the problem. I have yet to hear back from either Apple or TD Curran, according to the BBB they have until the 22nd of Dec to reply to me. Not sure what happens then. The good news, I suppose is that I have not yet had a shutdown since they updated software so maybe that was the problem somehow. But, the issue has gone away and then resurfaced after a few weeks before so who knows. Yeah, I am really wishing I had bought a Dell right now. live and learn. I will post what ever response I get from either company.
Happy holidays!
December 27th, 2007 at 11:37 pm
What I am quite surprised with is the lack of information pertaining to what software you installed and what System settings you changed post-purchase. I have a macbook pro that is currently 1 month old that randomly “froze” and whatnot and it was related to a piece of software I installed.
I am wondering if you 1) tried a full reinstall of the operating system to try and ensure it was a hardware issue? I have a tough time believing any company would say “it’s a software issue” after you’ve done a full software reinstall and it didn’t help.
What bugs me the most about people who cry and moan to the BBB about every shotty bit of service they get is that they probably have no idea what they are talking about. In your case it doesn’t seem like you 1) know a lot about how computers work, or 2) haven’t spent the time to find out how they work.
I personally run several machines with Windows, FreeBSD, Ubuntu, and Leopard. I’ve put the time in to learn about them so when I call tech support I can be educated with them. I also work in computers and there’s nothing that bugs me more than a user who calls up and is rude to me. It makes me want to not help them until they work on fixing their attitude first. You note nothing in your letter about what your attitude was like to these people when you approached them. I am not assuming you were rude, I am simply pointing out something that results in most people getting what they call “bad service.”
Yes, Software Update is on by default, but if doesn’t just automatically update your software. It checks once a week and then pops up and you need to install it yourself (the reason being if you’re in the middle of something it gives you the opportunity to update when it is most convenient.
I will say this: you will find those who have had nothing but amazing interaction with company A, and those who have had horrible ones. It could be the person you get on the phone or in person. It could be you that caused it to be so bad. It could be your lack of knowledge that makes it frustrating. It could be the person who is helping you that is just having a bad day/week/month/year/needs-to-be-fired. Whatever it is, understand that Customer Support is a very tough business because everyone wants “better, faster, more, now, because I’m most important.” Cut them some slack and they’ll bend over backwards for you. If they don’t - you have a reason to complain. This goes for Apple, or any other company.
December 31st, 2007 at 5:05 am
For those who asked, I have not yet heard from Apple, but I did get a response from TD Curran, which was basically a F*** you, we are not going to refund your money, and contained two outright lies. Here it is in full:
Selah Tay-Song did not purchase her computer from us. Apple, Inc. warranties do not include problems caused by software. Software problems were causing Ms. Selah Tay-Song’s problems with her computer. Ms. Tay-Song contacted Apple, Inc. prior to bringing her computer to us. They informed her that her problem was due to software issues and would not be repaired under warranty. She brought her computer to us, we fixed her software problems and charged her $85.00 for our service. Our normal service charge is $95.00 but due to her complaints, we charged her less than our normal fee as consideration. We feel her complaint is invalid due to the fact that we fixed her problem and charged her less than our normal hourly repair fee.
and my response to them:
Their response does not even address my complaint, and it contains two fabrications. My complaint is that I was assured verbally that I would be informed before services were rendered that would incur charges.
The first fabrication is that Apple Inc. told me that the issue was not covered under warranty. Apple, Inc never once told me that the issue I was having was software related and that it was not covered under warranty. When I dropped off the computer for service from TD Curran, the gentleman assured me that the problem should be covered under my warranty. Also when I called TD Curran before bringing the computer in and described the issue, they assured me that it was a problem that was covered under warranty and that as long as I was covered under an Applecare protection plan, I would not be charged by them. What TD Curran could have done to avoid this problem and allow me to make an informed decision was to tell me when I dropped off the computer: “We cannot guarantee that you will not be charged for services, and we cannot call you and notify you before you are charged.” Unfortunately, they did not say that; I was distinctly told by Art that I would be notified before any charges would be applied.
Their second fabrication is that they reduced the charges when I complained to Troy. This is completely untrue. I was never furnished with a bill for $95. The original bill I was handed when I walked into the store to pick up my computer, before I even spoke with Troy, was for an $85 software service charge, which I never agreed upon. I can furnish my copy of this bill as necessary. I was never presented with a charge for a $95 hourly service fee nor was I presented with a bill of time spent working on my computer.
I will not accept less than a full refund of my $92.14 and a written apology for not only the rude customer service I received from Troy, but also an apology for the downright fabrications in TD Curran’s response.
December 31st, 2007 at 5:09 am
Mike, Not sure if you are reading my response but I must say it is way off base. I have worked in customer service for all of my adult life, and I have dealt with the rudest of the rude customers. For that very reason, whenever I am dealing with a person who is providing me services, I bend over backwards to be polite, respectful, and friendly. Even when I am frustrated with a company or a situation, I maintain the perspective that the person on the other end of the phone is just like me, someone trying to make an honest living. If I have a fault, it is that I am too polite and therefor open myself up to be taken advantage of, as I did in this situation.
I have used PC’s since they came out and this is my first Mac. I had only had it six months at the time the problem occurred, and unfortunately at that time I had not had a chance to completely learn their foibles (such as a lack of software updates causing problems, something you don’t have to worry about with PC’s!) I am rectifying that now.
I had been cutting them slack for three months, with no resolution and $400 in additional $ spent on a brand new computer on top of horrible customer service, by the time I decided to “whine to the bbb.”
Hope I never get you on the phone when I have a computer issue. I have an issue with computer experts who do it for a living and expect non-experts to know everything they do. If that was the case, why would we have computer experts? Why would computer companies even provide service? When someone calls me about an issue with their account, I don’t expect them to know exactly how the banking industry works. I try to inform them as much as I can, but I never expect them to know.
December 31st, 2007 at 5:15 am
PS the only software I installed was Microsoft Office for Windows, which my friend also installed on his Mac (from the exact same disk) without any issues. that was about three months before i began having issues. I never changed any settings pertaining to software updates, and nothing ever popped up asking me to update software. Now it is set to default, and still nothing pops up, but I have not had an issue with it freezing.
Oh yeah and if you had actually read the letter, you would know that the second person I spoke to at Apple had me uninstall and reinstall the software.
January 6th, 2008 at 7:29 pm
Hi
I’m suffering from RSS on my 4 month old (yes, you read that correctly!) MacBook. It’s going to the Apple Store for repair tomorrow.
The saga of my bad luck with Macs is a long & tragic one, which you can read about at my blog (which macbookrandomshutdown.com inspired me to write!). http://appleschmapple.blogspot.com
There you can learn about how my previous Mac (an iBook) also died, but was resurrected with a 2 pence coin and some c-clamps!!
January 8th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
I just like to offer the big picture if you don’t mind. Comparing Apple with Microsoft and other related companies.
Big Picture - it is all about supply vs demand and quality vs profit. Microsoft was getting a whole lot of defects in their past, however, that was due to the outrageous high demand they had. Whereas, Apple had much lower demand thus better quality. As Apple does get more competitive with Microsoft, their demand will increase, thus the trade off to handle profit vs support will tighten their budgets, thus quality will reduce and hence more defects.
Same as any industry - Toyota, as becoming higher in demand, defects arise. GM, as high demand was in the past, higher defects, but as demand lessened, their quality is dramatically improving.
Therefore, as with any company - our society is bent on reputation rather than business logic. Buy the OS and machine from the company that doesn’t have the demand, their quality is better - don’t look at the past reputation, but current operating output. The company with the high demand is stressed by their internal costs of maintaining quality forcing out the supply to catch up with their campaigns.
January 14th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
I had the same issues for the last few months, Now i purchased Leopard Mac OS 10.5 and installed it. Then it suggested me i do firmware update. Used the link which got me to the apple site to download and install it. Then there was a little istruction to shutdon then to hold the power button for few second until the light flickers. Did so i was told and while thefirmware update was being done, the laptop shutdown. Then that was the last time i saw it boot up. My laptop is dead, it would not boot up again. did all tip that are out there to try and boot it up, nothing worked. As of now it is in a shop, they may have to replace the board which costs around $850.00 or replace thechip, other wise it is garbage beside the Hard disc and the RAM. This is so stupid am very upset, it is not my fault but the Mac deafult, they should be accountable for that.
The worest part is i just purchased the New Mac OS 10.5 and upgreaded the ram to 2gig.
January 16th, 2008 at 5:54 am
Quote: “such as a lack of software updates causing problems, something you don’t have to worry about with PC’s!”
This is the most uneducated comment I’ve ever read on “problem with my computer” blogs.
Not having installed software updates, does NOT cause problems with the exception of installing newer software that requires certain updates (usually new drivers for new hardware, or updated drivers for hardware
January 16th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
You really need to research things before you go into things. Be a better consumer, and pay attention to what you are doing. Seems like you just didn’t know what you were doing and as a result tried to blame a company for your mistakes. I had a Dell once, then it crashed. I had a Compaq once and it crashed. I had an apple once, then it crashed. These things aren’t all mint always. And people will tell you that its because of Apple. You really need to think first. Rational is better than stupidity.
January 16th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
A smart consumer will always research pros and cons prior to making a purchase, regardless of the cost. An ignorant consumer will always search for someone to bame after a troublesome purchase, regarless of the cost.
People, the best BBB is YOU, nobody cares more about your situation than you do.
Had you expended so much effort prior to your negative experiences, you wouldd have almost certainly avoided those afore mentioned nightmares of tech support, warranties, third party repair …etc
You wouldn’t marry someone without knowing at least a small amount of that person’s past, now would you?
January 17th, 2008 at 3:07 am
I agree–its very important to research a product before purchasing it. Kind of like taking a used car to a mechanic. I agree that I did not do my homework before I bought this product. I have certainly learned my lesson!
However, that does not excuse Apple for dropping the ball on the customer service end. Nor does it make it OK for the service manager of TD Curran to yell at me and call me a liar after charging me in error.
Ten years ago, I bought a Compaq. It crashed once, I called their service line and they walked me through how to do a hard restart, and I never had another problem with it. Ten years later it still works fine, although its dinosaur. That is all I ask for– a product that works, or when it doesn’t work, I am provided with the service to fix the problem.
A customer relations rep from Apple finally contacted me this week. She is looking into my situation and is confident that they will at the least be able to refund the $100 I paid to TD Curran. She was appalled at how they had treated me. She also said that it was odd that they said that the shutdown was due to software updates, although whatever they did did seem to stop the problem. She is going to look into it further and call me back.
January 20th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
So here I am In Brazil, my 7 month old MacBook just started radomly shutting down, no warning, now won´t even start up at all. If it sits for a few hours the screen will come on for two seconds and then quit again. Of course imagine trying to speak Portugeuse and explain these issues….
Anyone have a clue? Now I´m lugging 5lbs. of expensive junk all over the world….
January 20th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Yes. My MacBook Pro just started having RSS. I bought it in the Netherlands.
January 21st, 2008 at 6:21 am
There really does seem to be a perennial and systemic problem with Mac logic boards leading to RSS. The way it was explained to me once is that Mac pushes the envelope with its power management system. It is very fault-intolerant, that is, small variations in hardware performance that don’t bother other systems drive Macs over the edge. There was some speculation that all of the copy protection stuff with Vista would make it less fault-tolerant that earlier versions of Windows, but I haven’t come across any accounts of that so far (cross fingers). I bailed on Macs after experiencing RSS type problems on the second logic board of my G5 iMac, encountering Apple warranty dodging, and learning of the widespread RSS problems with Macbooks.
The other recurring theme is that Apple tends not to honor their basic warranty if Applecare isn’t purchased. And if you’re using Apple tech support to diagnose a problem that turns out to be a repair issue more than 90 days after purchase without Applecare, you’re paying for that too. Applecare costs much more than comparable service plans from other manufacturers. You can get plans with accidental damage protection for less than the cost of Applecare, which does not include that protection. The consumer should not have to purchase an overpriced and leaky service plan to get tech support and assurance that a warranty will be honored for the duration of year one.
January 24th, 2008 at 5:07 am
I work in high tech and have been a Windows PC user all my life, but given the recent hype around the new Macbooks and OS-X decided to get one as my second laptop a few months ago to check out the User Interface and mess around with the underlying UNIX OS (I already have a Lenovo laptop and two iPods sitting around at home). BIG BIG MISTAKE!!!
The MacBook “out-of-box experience†and great user interface got me pretty hooked off the bat, and I was starting to use the laptop more and more. Suddenly two weeks in, the laptop stopped booting giving me an error screen when I turned it on. After taking it to the store it turned out to be a hard drive failure and they gave me a new laptop and moved my docs for me. I wrote this off as a one-off QA lapse.
I had almost forgotten about this a month into the life of the replacement, when one day I close the lid on my laptop, leave and come back to my apartment to notice a small crack in the screen. In about a day, the crack expanded and the screen became blank bright white and unusable. I took it into the store and to my absolute astonishment the people there tried to force me into paying $750 to fix the screen, saying there must have been some kind of accident (even though the laptop is brand new without even a scratch on it and hasn’t ever left my apartment). The store manager even tried to convince me (I kid you not) that there might have been an “unknown accident†such as a “cat or pet damaging the laptopâ€. After a shouting match explaining that I don’t even own a pet, and explaining how ridiculous it would be for me to pay $750 to fix a screen when I can buy an entire PC for that price,the manager agreed to take the laptop back after charging me a %10 restocking fee even though the 2-week return period had expired.
I know that this is just one incident, but talking to other people waiting at the “Genius bar†it was amazing to see how many were first time Mac users with horror stories of broken hardware. Apple has a lot of smart engineers and designers. In fact the design is so good that I believe people are more willing to put up with failures (the concept known as “emotional design†based on the book by Don Norman). However, it seems clear to me that they are struggling to scale their QA on their laptop line as they increase production to meet demand. Given that users are already paying a premium for their laptops over alternative, such lapses in fundamental quality issues are absolutely inexcusable in my view. I think we are just seeing the tip of the ice-berg as they try to scale to their growth and will be shooting themselves in the foot with poor quality.
No more Macs for me. I am sticking with PCs.
January 26th, 2008 at 2:06 am
well, nearly six months after my laptop started having problems I finally have some resolution. Apple is sending me a check for the amount I paid TC Curran. They were willing to refund the APP in full, but the customer relations person encouraged me not to cancel it, in case something comes up, and to take a free accessory at a comparable price instead. So I feel that I have come out ahead with a very nice new printer and still have warranty coverage for 3 years (not that it will do me much good based on the service I’ve received so far and the horror stories I’m hearing here!)
I am still skeptical of Apple. It seems ridiculous that it had to get this far before I received good service. I still have not gotten a good explanation from them about what caused the problem in the first place, but whatever TD Curran did seemed to work– for now.
Good luck to all the rest of you out there suffering from this problem. it really does seem to pay to complain to the bbb and to write a letter to the owner. At least in the end, Apple took the smart road and made an effort to retain a customer. I don’t know how retained I am–only time will tell.
January 28th, 2008 at 6:11 am
Fuck you cock sucking whore. Apples are great products and this is just a ploy to get cash out of Apple. Fuck you all for saying Dells and the like are better than Apple, you are all a bunch of fucking cock sucking whores. You don’t know shit. Fuck you all.
January 29th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
From Bob’s colorful comments, I would say he is one of those who would say apple is the best even when his mac is in flames as he is typing.
Bob, say your sorry for language and get some help.
Oh yes, and You should have bought a Dell, dude!!
January 30th, 2008 at 2:14 am
Nice. or he is one of those idiots who don’t really care either way and think that profanity and insults are a great way to get a reaction out of people. Get yourself a life and a clue, Bob.
March 8th, 2008 at 3:01 am
My iMac is also randomly shutting down. I have called for support but like you said they don’t seem to find a solution. Now I can’t even use my computer for more than 5 minutes, it is so annoying that I had stopped using it. So tomorrow I’m making my “appointment” to get my computer fixed at the store.. Wish me luck!!
March 19th, 2008 at 5:50 am
I was going to buy a macbook, but now, after reading all these issues I’ll go with a PC
July 22nd, 2008 at 2:10 am
I’m having the RSS problem right now with my macbook, and for all I’ve been through I think we should get exactly what your letter claims: our money back or a new computer, compensation for all the time and money spent trying to fix, what is a DEFECT from apple computers.
Why can’t they just give us a new computer!!!
July 26th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
never buy a dell!!! it is much worse then Macs. But if you are looking for an alternative computer, get a vaio or maybe a hp pavillion